Interview with Trina Shoemaker (Sheryl's recording engineer) Early 2002

What's it like to work with Sheryl Crow in the studio?

TS: It can be intense, but I'm totally committed to her. Sheryl usually takes at least a year of commitment because she creates in the studio. That's where she writes and I'm there to record it all. I don't have anything else happening in my personal life - no boyfriends, no husband, no kids - so I can take the time she needs and devote my life to the recording process.
When she's in the studio, I get there early in the morning to set everything up. I usually know what we're going to be working on that day - vocals, guitars, etc. - but if I don't know or if another musician is going to sit in that day, I have everything ready to go just in case I need it. Then, when Sheryl arrives, I'm running tape all the time, catching every little thing she does.
In fact, we've worked together so many times now that I can tap into her moods and cater to them. If she needs some cheering up, I'll put a bouquet of flowers next to her one day and bring her new lip gloss the next. Whatever she needs, I take care of it. I think it's important to adapt to the artist if you want to get the best out of them. And that's what I try to do - I do whatever it takes so that we can get what we want on the record. It is, however, very expensive to work the way she does - doing all of your songwriting in the studio - but that's the way Sheryl prefers it and obviously it works for her.

How did you meet Sheryl in the first place?

TS: It's funny, really, it was a fluke. I was the house engineer at a studio called Kingsway when she booked a room. I happened to just walk in to pick up some DATs at the same time her producer was leaving. I don't know what happened, but she seemed very upset. Anyway, the studio manager introduced us and Sheryl asked me to record her for a while.
I agreed and prepared a cozy little setup. Sheryl started to jam with some other musicians -they were working on a song called "Home," and I just ran the tape. At one point, Sheryl said, "We should run a multi-track because this is turning into a song." I informed her that I had been running a multi-track the whole time and played it back for her. She was blown away. After that she asked me to continue working with her. By the way, the cut of that song on (the Sheryl Crow album) is the very first take.

How much input do you have when you're recording with Sheryl?

TS: Actually, quite a lot. I think the lines between producer, engineer and artist blend together when you're recording in a studio. Because I'm in the room I'm part of the production. I will point out problems I hear, but I don't insist on my way, unless I'm co-producing the record.
Early in my career I discovered that I have very common ears - I hear things like most people do. What I mean by that is if I like a certain sound, other people tend to like it too. I also try to interpret music in the most present way possible, by honoring the artist as well as the song and making it sound real. I don't use a lot of tricks. I just go for the best tones and quality of sound I can get. And because I record things more naturally - you even could say organically - I find that people will usually listen to what I have to say.
I do get a lot more opportunity for input with artists I've worked with before. With artists like Sheryl I might make a suggestion that goes to the song's structure as well as its sound. I'm much more musical than I am technical. I can memorize lyrics immediately and remember the chord changes after one take so I can talk musicians through their tracks. Most artists take it to heart, because they know what I can do and that I'm simply looking out for their best interests. So I'll make suggestions about what I think, but I also know my place. After all, I am their employee and, ultimately, it's their decision.

Do you prefer working with artists who produce themselves?

TS: You know, most of the acts I've worked with have produced themselves. And about half the time, I'll co-produce with them. Actually, I've done very few producer-driven projects, but I don't avoid them—it just works out that way. With the artist as producer it is more direct and saves a lot of time, especially with Sheryl—she knows what she's doing and our communication is on another level.
Most musicians who are also producing will usually say, "Make it sound good," and I try my best to do that. On the other hand, Sheryl and I use a language that shortcuts a lot of talking. We've worked together enough to know what the other one is thinking—even before we say it.
As a rule, though, I have strong opinions about sound. I think of myself as a conduit for the music and my body as an extension of the console. So I'm there for the project no matter who is producing it. However, the biggest problem I've seen is when an artist insists on being the producer, but has no experience. There's a lot more that goes into producing than simply picking the songs and recording them. There's administrative work and a thousand micro-decisions that have to be made every day. Often in those situations, I'll insist that I be a co-producer so that at least someone with experience can handle whatever comes up.

On Sheryl's latest album, C'mon C'mon, you incorporated some loops into the sound. Has technology changed your recording technique?

TS: Not at all. It's still in the ears and how you hear things. That part hasn't changed, only the mechanics have. As for the loops, we've used them on every one of Sheryl's albums. It's just that everyone is noticing them for the first time on this one.
They're a very important part of her songwriting process. In fact, you could say that they're critical because we use loads of loops every time she records. I'm always set up for them. One of her musician friends might drop into the studio and I'll mic them so that when I hear a sound I grab it. It's not just drums or bass either. It could be a riff or a beat, or simply someone humming or tapping on their leg. You never know, but Sheryl will hear something in it and start improvising off of it. Sometimes it's a combination of things that we put together. We've always used loops, because that's how she constructs her songs.

Sounds like you really have to be on your toes in the studio with Sheryl…

TS: Yes, but it's a good thing. It's exciting and new every time. You never know what's coming, but you have to be ready for it anyway. It's part of Sheryl's creative process and as the engineer I can't say, "Wait a minute, I have to set this up." If I do that it ruins the flow and we can lose the magic.
I'm constantly adding things as they present themselves. If I need to adjust a mic, I do it without stopping the musicians. I'm constantly on the move and listening to everyone, but that doesn't mean I change the way I do things. I might have a thousand things going at once, but I use the same techniques.
As much as people see engineering as this limitless potential for the artist, I consider myself to be a known piece of equipment. The music defines the sound, I just make sure that I get it down. You know, a lot of Sheryl's songs are cut from that process rather than being a full-blown performance by the whole band.

You've now engineered three Sheryl Crow albums. In 1998 you won two Grammys for The Globe Sessions, your second album with her. Did your technique change from album to album?

TS: No, it didn't. To be honest, the only reason I think I was recognized for The Globe Sessions was because Sheryl won a Grammy. It was about the music, just like it should be. We didn't do anything different on that record than we did on any of the others, including the new one. The only thing I recall differently about that album was that I was in one of my search modes—where I'm obsessed with the nature of sound. But technically, my technique remained the same throughout every album.

Let's go back to the beginning of your career. How did you become an engineer and get that kind of experience?

TS: The hard way, from the bottom up. I learned almost everything on the job. I've always loved music, but I knew I couldn't make a living as a musician. I was mechanically inclined though—as a little girl I took my parents' stereo apart and reassembled an eight-track.
I listened to all kinds of music and got a concept about studio recording. Then, when I was 19, I moved to California to be a record producer and ended up at Capitol Records as a secretary. But I wanted to work in the studio and sit at that giant console. The problem was, in those days, the studio guys thought a girl was a distraction, so I never got a chance.
After a few months, I quit and moved to London where I met the manager for a couple of acts. He hired me as a secretary and gave me a shot in the studio. I got to punch-in vocals and learn the board, but it didn't go any further. So, I returned to L.A., took a couple of short engineering classes and began working in studios doing odd jobs.
Things still weren't going fast enough for me so I moved to New Orleans and worked as a studio maid and go-fer. There, I hung around the old-school guys who took me under their wing, but wouldn't let me do anything important. I had to bartend and waitress to make ends meet, but mostly I just lived at those studios doing anything they needed.
One day there was a late session going on and no one knew how to lock down the tape machine, so I walked over and did it for them. They were so impressed that I got to assist during the recording. After that I got some demo jobs with Lisa Germano and Iggy Pop and really started to get a sense of a full-on session. A producer liked what I was doing enough to give me a chance with one of his groups and finally, in 1994, I was an official engineer.
I gave up a lot to get there. The studio was my life—I had no social life at all. I worked for nothing just to be around that environment. And when I did get paid, it was never enough to live on so I always had a second job. I guess you could say, I paid my dues.

Do you think it was tougher for you because you're a female?

TS: Not really, and certainly not more than any other female in the music business. It is a male-dominated industry for the most part, and even female artists have it a little harder than their male peers. But I never thought of myself as a second-class citizen and never considered that I couldn't do anything I wanted. I was raised by my dad and I know how to operate in a man's world. I can only think of a few times where it made any difference, and that was early in my career. Now if I'm not getting gigs because I'm a woman, I don't know about it and it makes very little difference in my life.

Since you learned to engineer the old-fashioned way, do you prefer analog or digital?

TS: I prefer analog, but I can get those familiar warm sounds with digital, too. I simply use vintage pre-amps and tube compressors. Analog gear will retain the same sound even after you convert it to digital.
Digital equipment does make the process go faster, but you lose something as well. I still like to cut drums and vocals in analog because I think it sounds better. Especially the vocals, which come across much more intimate and emotionally attached. Nowadays, though, I believe you need to use both. I like to track in analog and then dump it into Pro Tools for editing and mixing. But I can work either way and still get similar results.

Does anything ever bother you when you're in the studio?

TS: Every time I start a new project I have severe anxiety. I wonder if I can deliver the sound they want. I worry about being able to capture the songs correctly. I get hyper, but also very depressed at the same time. What I do is focus those feelings into a form of motivation that makes me driven, and I've discovered that helps me to be creative. Because, really, the only time I'm truly happy and completely alive is when I'm sitting behind the console.

While you usually don't mix the recordings, do you think about the mix while you're recording?

TS: All the time. Of course, the same engineers mix most of my records so I know their style and I factor that in. But I do mix to a certain extent while we're tracking. Sometimes I'll even push the settings so that the sound can't be changed at all in the mix—especially with the vocals. There are some things a mixer shouldn't be messing with. And, generally, I've been told that people enjoy mixing my records.

What's on the horizon for you?

TS: Well, a couple partners and myself just opened a studio in New Orleans. It's mainly a demo studio, but we keep upgrading as we go along. My dream studio would have everything I love—a large Neve console, lots of 1176s, a load of high end pre-amps, Elam 251 mics, filters, lots and lots of guitar pedals, a ton of outboard gear and an integrated Pro Tools system. And, of course, I would want the people I love working in it.

What's the most common problem you see artists having in the studio?

TS: When artists hire a producer or engineer for a particular sound, it can turn into a nightmare. The producer or the engineer may think that because they were chosen on the basis of what they can produce that they have all the power.
All too often in those situations, the artist's vision gets trampled. The artist usually has paid a lot of money to have those people there, but they're afraid to say anything if they don't like the results. Artists should learn to just speak up if they don't like something. I've been lucky—I can usually sense when the artist is uncomfortable and doesn't like the way things are going. When that happens, we stop everything and fix it.

A studio career is one of long hours, meticulous attention to detail and a willingness to adapt with new technologies, so how can you make life easier in the studio?

TS: Don't try to reinvent the wheel all the time. You know, some people try all these different things just because they're new. Well, that's fine on your own time, but in the studio it's costing someone good money.
For example, I don't try to find a new way to record the drums every time I work. Some basics never change. You do, however, accommodate different scenarios and different artists, but the instruments don't usually change. So you record them the best way you know how. The players might change, but the process doesn't. My philosophy is that if it works, it stays.

What advice do you have for someone who would like to break into the business?

TS: Know what you want and go for it. You know, sometimes you just have to do it. If I were hesitant when opportunity knocked, I wouldn't be where I am today. You have to have a vision and a plan. I immersed myself in the studio life; and, although I wouldn't recommend that everyone be as obsessed as I was, I think you have to have a fair amount of determination.